Wednesday, 7 July 2010

Welsh is a dead language

Dear call me Dave,

If you are looking to shave a huge amount of money from the national budget, can I suggest that you need to look no further than the amounts spent by National and local government in translating everything into foreign languages?

It's ridiculous. If people want to live here in the UK, then they should learn to understand English. And if they can't read your literature, let them get one of their mates to tell you what it says.

And while you're at it, you could also slash 50% off the money given to the Welsh assembly at a stroke!

I recently returned from a trip to Wales. Everything was written in two languages - first Welsh, and underneath in English. Except in the south, where it is the other way around. I wonder if there is a bit in the middle where it is side by side?

But I digress. The fact is that this costs hundreds of millions of pounds and is completely unnecessary.

English is the official language of the UK, not Welsh. There are 60 million people in the United Kingdom and some 600,000 people in Wales speak Welsh. That equates to 1% of the population overall and approximately 21% of the population of Wales.

The Welsh Language Society openly admits that there is less than 0.1% of the population who only speak Welsh - and those are preschool age children who are growing up in families that speak Welsh as a first language.

Yet every street sign is in Welsh and English, Every shop sign is in Welsh and English. Every tourist leaflet. every piece of official literature. I could go on, but you get the picture.

Think of the environmental cost! Bigger signs, more paint, more ink, more paper. And why? The people who read them all speak English!

The Welsh assembly has interpreters who sit in on its proceedings, translating live through members' headphones. I can understand this in the United Nations - but in Cardiff!?! It's ridiculous. Everyone present can speak English.

That is what happens when you give a tin pot little principality - note that I say "principality" not "country" - its own parliament. They piss money up the wall to make themselves look important and pass silly laws to make it happen.

And don't tell me that Welsh is still a live language - because they still speak Latin in the Vatican but that doesn't mean that every Italian street sign is in two languages.

Sorry, Taff, but  the Welsh language is a quaint little anachronism and doesn't need to be plastered over everything in sight.

Get over it and move on...

116 comments:

  1. This post has recieved my first "Shite" rating. Thank you very, very much!

    I'd like to thank both my regular readers, my agent, my next door neightbour, my editor, my parents for having me...but most of all myself. Thank you all so very much! Thank you, thank you, thank you....

    (That's enough thanks! Ed.)

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  2. Ignoble Caledonian7 July 2010 11:06

    And the same goes for the signs in gaelic festooning the Highlands and Islands. Mind you, it is even worse in Ireland, when you only get the name in their local language, and haven't a clue which road to take, with signs pointing in opposite directions to the same place-but it is their own money (or is it?-EU funded by us!)

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  3. Mad Dog Taffy O'Jones7 July 2010 20:30

    Yeah, because nothing says 'dead language' like hundreds of thousands of native speakers.

    Pen pidyn (translate that one at your own expense!).

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  4. We could always leave the English off the signs - same effect on cost.

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  5. Thing is, Mad Dog, which part of the "less than 0.1% of the population" did you not understand?

    I have no problem if you want to bugger around like this as long as you pay for it. But the Welsh didn't want a full parliament because they prefer to send the bill to the English.

    Let's give Wales, Scotland and Ulster full independence, and then they can pay their own bills. Fine by me.

    (Incidentally, dear readers, "pen diyn" means dick head)

    What can I say in reply? How about :

    Cachu bant ti cachu mes. Cau dy ffwcin ceg. Pisho bant. Dos i chwarae efo dy nain.

    I think that's appropriate...

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  6. Sorry about the "pen diyn" typo, but being a dick head I couldn't be bothered to correct it.

    Anyway, isn't pendiyn a place? Blame the microsoft spell checker...

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  7. Lo and behold, the big story in the Scottish papers today, is the £26m plan to adopt a bilingual logo, throughout the whole country, with not only roadsigns, but all letterheads and websites to be adulterated.As only 1.2% of the population speak gaelic, public sector workers will be forced to undergo gaelic training!-with gaelic officers to oversee the plan.They would be better concentrating on Japanese-at least they visit our country,market our whisky and play golf.

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  8. I rest my case - 26 million quid pissed up the wall on an ego trip.

    That's 26 million paid for by England through the Scottish grant. 26 million we don't fucking have!!!!

    When will they get a grip on reality?

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  9. Cachu bant means- shit off, which, as far as I am aware is not a well used insult.
    It seems that the main problem of those who have a problem with the Welsh language, is that they can't understand it. And because they dont understand it they feel the need to ridicule and belittle it. A little like a pathetic little child in the playground. Because that's what ignorant people do. They don't understand something and they therefore hide their ignorance by ridiculing that thing.
    Our language was here long before the English language. Check any decent history book and you will see that the early Britons spoke Brythoneg, the language which Welsh, Cornish and Breton evolved from. The Welsh language was here long before the Anglo-Saxons invaded and English was born. Our culture, heritage and language makes English look like a dribbling baby at the knee of it's older, wiser grandparent. We have withstanded the racism, bullying and opression of the English for centuries, and yet, we are still here. Surely you can cope with a few roadsigns.
    So, only 33% of Welsh people speak Welsh. Does that mean we don't exist? Does that mean we shouldn't have our own language on road signs in our country? Your ignorance and stupidty astounds me.
    While there are Welsh speaking people in Wales, we will fight to have a bilingual Wales.
    Cer i ddarllen llyfr hanes rhag i dy anwybodaeth a dy dwpdra dy dagu yr ynfytyn truenus, a thra wyt ti yn y llyfrgell erycha am ystyr y gair dwyieithrwydd.

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  10. Tell you what - if I send you 10p can you ring someone who gives a shit?

    I recently came back through Gatwick and there was a Welsh bloke in front of me who was complaining about having to pay £5.50 to re-enter his own country. I was forced to point out to him that Wales is a principality not a country. We offered you your own parliament and you bottled it

    Have you ever wondered why they only charge to enter Wales on the bridge? It's because they are in such a rush to get out that no-one would stop at the toll boothes on the way out!!!

    Ffwcia oma haliwr. Ti'n llawn cachu. Mae dy fam yn llyfu cociau mul.

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  11. Funny how the Welsh language is dead and I was speaking it, and watching a TV programme containing it, just a minute ago. Also funny how at the office where I work ten out of sixteen of us speak Welsh, and prefer to speak it. But I suppose we should be used to being opressed by the English now? If a person from England is proud of their own culture, it's called patriotism, but if a Welsh person does the same about thier culture, then their called a nationalist. And the fact that you have to resort to swearing to prove your point, just proves how pathetic you and your opinions really are.

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  12. Er.....If you speak the language how you didn't know that I was Swearing BACK in the language used by the bloke who swore first??

    I have no trouble with you being bi-lingual, just don't send the bill to England. Pay for it yourself!

    You bottled your independence when it was offered - Scotland had the balls but not you. You like leeching off us instead. You are not a country because you hadn't the guts to go for it, you're a pissy little principality ruled by the son of the Queen. I feel sorry for you...

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  13. It was England that imposed its language on the Welsh. Think of footing the bill as reparations.

    Without a place in public life, Welsh will die. And I mean really die, like there will be no more native speakers. You fail to realize that 'dead' and 'endangered' don't mean the same thing. Your comparison with the Vatican is irrelevant, because no-one in the Vatican speaks Latin as their native language.

    Welsh is a living language, but without real action it won't be for much longer. If you think 1/5 of the Welsh population is nothing, you should see the percentage of minority peoples who speak their own language in Australia. It's not good at all.

    I also like the hypocrisy that you liken pan-Europeanism to Nazism but still piss on the idea of sovereignty and autonomy of British countries.

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  14. Wales is a principality, NOT a country.
    When it was a country, it surrendered to England and ceeded counties as reparations for it's acts against the English.
    As your name doesn't exactly sound Welsh, I am unsurprised that you don't know Welsh history.
    Maintain your 'dying' language if you wish, but please pay for it yourself. As far as I am concerned, it is patent nonsense and pure vanity to keep it going.

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  15. I think I love you, mind if I use some of your facts in an English speech I have to do? The people who support Welsh are the Patriotic Welsh speakers who know the language. The unsupporters are the kids who are forced to learn welsh for 12 years of their life, incuding doing it for GCSE's. Whereas we could get a better education in better subjects, and put funding to better courses, they insist to teach us welsh, whereas 1% of children who leave school can barely understand it at most

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  16. Your logic is senseless. You do realise that one country can have more than one language, or does the maths confuse you? It is probably the most Welsh aspect of our culture, why should it be forced into the history books? The decline of Welsh as a language is a recent occurrence, if anything we should have Welsh only signs.


    As for the 'payment,' it cost is insignificant. We don't print two signs, but one sign with two lines. Compare what it costs to say, basic road maintenance, wars...NHS, whatever have you, and its daft to use cost as any sort of argument.

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  17. Should have done your reaserch12 March 2011 21:36

    You do realise that the reason the cost was sent to England is that YOU wanted our country years ago? Oh, what's that I hear...yes, a Referendum, and what? We voted yes? Oh you must feel embarrassed!
    A 'dead' language I hear your self-important, arrogant voice squeak? You do realise that Welsh is the only language that has come BACK from the brink of extinction, and is making bounteous leaps back to the wonder it was!? I attend a welsh secondary school; and to form that school 7 years ago, an English school was closed. I'm sure that shows the changing attitude in the Welsh towards the language, and that they are realising its true importance and potential. And, to finish, It's clear to everyone that you're jealous of those whom can speak the beauty, that is Welsh, slating the heritage merely because you're too lazy and arrogant to learn it. Why else would you attempt (Badly if I do say so) to swear in our majestic language!
    Nawr, cer i grafu, y domen o gach, cer i lifo fferen y fflapiau dy hen fam pwtainaidd. Sdim angen d'agwedd ffiaidd yn y gyfandir hon, neu'r BYD am y fater hyny. ...Yes, try and take note of that. Diolch...NID

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  18. Profanity is the last refuge of and immature mind...

    70% of you didn't even bother to vote - and actualy we built those castles to stop you invading us and trying to take our country.

    You didn't even have a written language until the English taught you how to write.

    What we need is a great big chain saw so we can run it up the River Severn and then push your tin pot PRINCIPALITY into the middle of the Atlantic.

    You seem to have missed the entire point in your rush to vitriol and vilification. If you weren't sticking your hands in our pockets, you wouldn't last a month! As I have said in my piece, feel free to do what you want, just don't send the bill to England. Spend your own money, not ours...

    'Arrogant' - hmmm.... 'self important' - hmmm.... You seem to be talking about yourself? Rather supercilious I would say.

    Presumably you resort to Welsh because you cannot master the finer complexities of the English language?

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  19. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you... just count the 'cost' as payback for the years of hardship your nation pushed on to us.
    All your futile efforts were in vain, I myself am living proof, making the Welsh language extinct didn't work, and now, over the last 200 years we have been gaining momentum, and yes, Wales will be returned to the greatness it once was.

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  20. What fucking greatness? Get a life!

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  21. Dioclese, you would have more of a point if you weren't so xenophobic. You seem to argue that we are both not a country, but also 'outsiders' stealing your money. We're either English, therefore simply part of your tax system. OR we're our own country, stealing your money.

    Either way, you haven't seemed to decide yet.

    Im no fervent nationalist, convinced we've been 'held back'. There are simple facts to the matter.

    1. We are a country. When I see the flag of England, I feel nothing. We have our own national institutions, customs, culture, etc. You can argue this all you like, but you're simply just wrong.

    2. Wales does have a massive economic problem. You are right that Wales fails provide for itself stable growth. There is a reason whitehall is pushing devolving tax power because it would save them a lot of money.

    But be fair in your assessment, you blog just seems like an attempt to enrage rather than provide a valid opinion.

    ps: quite coincidently, my 'word verification' is cession

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  22. Very classy. I post a valid argument that you can't counter so you delete my post.

    End of the day, this blog is a childish attempt to enrage -not to inform.

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  23. Sorry, Anon, but I don't do censorship. Blogger auto classified it as spam. I have restored it.

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  24. Ha. Thanks for posting it!

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  25. Given all the English grammar and spelling mistakes from the original poster, in English, the line:

    "Presumably you resort to Welsh because you cannot master the finer complexities of the English language?"

    is a bit rich.

    With regards to the original post itself, the percentage of people in the UK as a whole who speak Welsh isn't really relevant to bilingual signs in Wales. No one is proposing making all signs throughout the UK bilingual, but in an area where more than one language is commonly spoken, it makes sense to have bilingual signage.

    And for the record, Wales is, legally speaking, a country. It is one of the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom, and one of the three that make up Great Britain. It isn't a sovereign state, however. There's a difference.

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  26. Exactly which grammar and spelling mistakes are you referring to? can'r find any.

    Legally, Wales is a principality not a country. Nice try though!

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  27. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  28. Not sure why you deleted your last comment, John, so I'll reply to it anyway!

    The "can'r" speeling errror in my larst poste was witt!!

    However, you do win first prize in this months pedants' corner and clearly I need a new PC because this one can't spell for toffee...

    Thanks for your contribution.

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  29. Sending your kids to a Welsh language school is a great way to avoid ethnics and chavs without shelling out for private education.

    Yachi da!

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  30. We have had bilingual street signs since well before the Welsh Assembly.

    Wait until England gets road signs in English, Arabic, Urdu, Polish, and Swahili.

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  31. Regarding the original author, your arguments are completely irrational! We ARE a country. One of the 4 that make up the UK. You regard our patriotic behaviour, as nationalist behaviour, yet we're only trying to save our language from PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
    "Cadwn y mur rhag y bwystfil, cadwn y ffynon rhag y baw"- Waldo Williams. Yes, "baw". ENGLISH PEOPLE LIKE YOU. I'm in no way saying that all English people are as bad as you, but the people who share your unreasonable views disgust me! It makes sense to have bilingual signage in a BILINGUAL country ! Your comparison with the Vatican is irrelevant, as their official language is NOT Latin. You should have really done more research before posting your blog. Then you would know that a more appropriate language to compare with would be Basque or Catalan, languages, like Welsh who are in constant battle with majority languages like English and Spanish. I, as a Welsh student studying Welsh, feel disheartened when I see a
    sign that isn't bilingual in Wales. My first language is Welsh, but I gladly speak English to any Non-welsh speakers, and rationally so! Anyway, musn't it be so boring in England, speaking only one language?
    cer i grafu, diolch.

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  32. 'Foreign language' Hmm I actually feel sorry for the person writing this. It's obvious that you are very un-educated. Ill just correct you on the 'foreign language point'. Well Welsh is a brythtonic language which existed through out the whole of britain before the anglo saxon (English now) Invasions. Therefore it is the English langauge that is foreign. Nothing screams foreign more than a language that's a mish mash of french latain and old norse. Thanks for making a fool of yourself!

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  33. I would also like to point out that Wales is a country as the prince's powers have been devolved to the welsh assembly.

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  34. Your comment on 12 March 2011:
    "You didn't even have a written language until the English taught you how to write". Wrong!

    The welsh language came from Brythonic! Way before English was a language! Get your facts right!
    At least we can all speak 2 languages!
    Monolinguism must be so dreary!

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  35. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  36. It's just too easy to get small people from small places wound up when they know they have no argument.

    Even the 'Assembly' is so small because they aren't big enough for a proper parliament.

    Small men playing small games - with other people's money. So sad...

    And in the immortal words of Flanders and Swann "They sing much too loud, much too often, and flat. The English, the English, the English are best and I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest..."

    Come on, Dave - we need a new national anthem!

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  37. NEW national anthem? A national anthem you mean :p. If were playing little games 'Wales is a Principality' and this rubish, i'd like to point out that England has NO national anthem. God save the Queen is adopted for certain occasions as an anthem. E.e a rugby game

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  38. An intereseting post, and I am yet to enjoy reading the responses.
    I know as much of you as you know of me, which is basically nout.
    But this single posting of yours leads me to several conclusions - most of which are not good.
    It seems from your attitude to bilingualism that you don't value (please remember the word) culture.
    By value I mean something greater than appreciating price and cost.
    To follow your argument to its logical conclusion (where cash is king), surely you should be writing in Mandarin Chinese. That is after all the language of money, business and enterprise, which is, following your argument, the most important factors when considering diaolgue.
    Why then do you bother posting in a dead and moribund language such as English?
    English is nothing more than a 19th century western patois.
    Its time has been and gone.
    OK, you will argue that current trade is done through English, but this is but a blip, but a nano-second in history. The role of English in history is superfluous.
    Welsh on the other hand can be directly traced back two thousand years. It was here before your patois, and will be here after it.
    Why? Because English as a language is only interested in its ability to make its mney for those that use it. Its the language of money, and the language of money changes as the value of money changes. Your grandparents might have been proud of their pink empire but it started and ended there. If you choose to live by money, then die by money. Welsh is not the language of money nor commerce, but the language of a civiliation placing value on culture, friends, family.
    Rome became an empire that defined itself on wealth, and see where that got them. Wales and Welsh was here when Rome was here.
    Rome has long since gone.
    Good luck.

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  39. If as you say English is "a dead and moribund language" then surely Welsh is even more dead because so few people speak it in proportion to English.

    My argument is actually quite simple : The Welsh Asembly has no tax raising powers because it's not a full parliament. All it's funds come from the British government i.e my taxes. I have no problem with you spending your own money on this stuff, but I object to you spending mine.

    If you want to be taken seriously, go the Scottish route and have a full parliament not some half-hearted assembly. And go for tax raising powers...

    My personal view is that bilingual streetsigning is egoism. It's unnecessary. It's a waste of money on the same politically correct silliness scale as councils being forced to produce literature in umpteen different languages.

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  40. This post (with certain of the comments) is best described not in English or Welsh, but in Norse - troll.

    But anyway.

    My ancestry is West Midlands, Bloxwich / Wolverhampton region. I've visited Wales on a number of occasions. I like the bilingual signs and I did try learning the language while I was in school in... let's say, somewhere in central Shropshire.

    I also learnt enough Welsh history to understand that it was never a "great" nation. Welshmen liked fighting each other even more than they liked raiding us Mercians. This seems to be an endemic Celtic disease; on our side of the dyke, we and the Northumbrians and the West Saxons found ways to band together when it mattered. Perhaps because we can hold our liquor better.

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  41. Wait until England gets road signs in English, Arabic, Urdu, Polish, and Swahili.

    English or Welsh, I might not laugh at the prospect of Polish here. The Poles came through when we needed them.

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  42. First of all, if you dont like it, dont come to wales.
    I know you think that welsh is dead, but despite that you think that is the case, many people who cant speak welsh know name places by the Welsh name and NOT the english. Where I live Welsh is vastly spoken and Im fluent, and Im proud of the fact that Im fluent, and so are a lot of people. I dont care about your statistics, a lanague means a lot to the people it belongs to, so you should concider this.

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  43. I agree, Anon. You are effluent.

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  44. You're a twat aren't you, you're just a twat. I cant stand people like you, reading this has made my blood boil. The signs are bilingual so those unfortunate enough not to speak our language can understand, why won't you concentrate on the costs of damages during the riots in ENGLAND, concentrate on things that effect YOU, dafft idiot. As an ENGLISH person, you should concentrate on your country and not my COUNTRY, which will certainly go down the fucking pan if it's got more people like you there.

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  45. And I have a problem with offensive cunts who sign themselves 'Anonymous' and as I have repeatedly said you can do what you like but don't do it with English funding which you appear to piss up the wall just because it's someone else's money.

    And how many times do I have to tell your Wales is a PRINCIPALITY not a COUNTRY before it sinks in.

    If you don't like what I write then just fuck off and read something else! Or go shag a sheep...

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  46. Well, you definitely know how feel then, we offend your opinion that you post on a pathetic blog. You offend us by insulting our hertiage, our language, our people and most of all our COUNTRY. You should give this blog a read; http://welshramblings.blogspot.com/2011/07/not-principality.html ....it might give you some tips on blog entry that isn't based on some bollocks you made up.

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  47. I welcome alternative views, but abuse is the last resort of an immature mind.

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  48. I agree, especially as I view everything that you have posted as abuse and hate, by a very immature person who doesn't know the first thing of what he's talking about.

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  49. I have discovered over the years that the Welsh are never wrong.

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  50. D: So you're married to a Cymraes eh ?

    Mad Morgan

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  51. The welsh want to hold on to their culture, they feel the same need to do so like any people of any country.

    But they have deluded themselves by thinking language is culture, language is just noise, it's what you do with it that matters.

    We don't celebrate Shakespeare because he wrote in English, but because he was English.

    Nobody outside Wales knows of any welsh achievements, so the welsh cling to their language and delude themselves that it actually matters.

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  52. I am guessing you are not the same Anonymous that has been slagging me off, then ?...

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  53. Guys, why bother giving this idiot the satisfaction of arguing our case? He is obviously a stubborn mule who is ignorant to any other language than his own tripe.

    At the end of the day we know we're great and that the language is not 'dying' as it indicates an decrease where in fact we all know, according to the census, that the welsh language has continued to INCREASE and flourish over the last 30 years.

    And lets not forget our fellow Welsh speakers out in Patagonia where they too have bilingual signs!

    And after that I end my case. Ignorant, rude and clearly idiotic people do NOT deserve the time of day. Our words are wasted on such vermin.

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  54. Er, Gwenny, have I missed something here but when someone calls me a rude idiot and vermin in the same breath, I call this 'hypocrisy'

    I repeat my case, Speak your language, put up your pointlessly biligual signage anywhere, but as I keep say - don't send the bill to England. Use your own funds and you can do what you like with no complaints from me...

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  55. Diolcese,

    I may be wrong about you, but I harbour the strongest suspicions that you're an intolerant English bigot that can't come to terms with the fact that you're 'forced' to share Britain with the natives, but you'd rather not. The temerity of it! Your hard earned Anglo-Saxon taxes going to support the language of the Britons! Outrage!!!

    Isn't democracy a bugger!?

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  56. No - what I object to is my hard earned ENGLISH taxes going to support the language of the WELSH.

    And I'm as much a British native as you are.

    And if you really want democracy you would have voted for a parliament - like the Scots - not some half-arsed irrelevant assembly. But no - then you would have had to spend your own money whihc, incidentaly, I have absolutely no problem with...

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  57. Colonies don't come cheap!

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  58. Especially colonies of leeches who don't want independence!

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  59. See, now I’m confused why you’d blog about something like this in the current climate. You mention a fourth Reich lots and you obviously have a libertarian political leaning and outlook on life. You seem to value sovereignty and democracy, at a certain level at least, and yet you also display a high level of intolerance and bigotry to a neighbouring people who have a history and culture different to your own. I’m not offended, just confused as to the reasons for this. ‘This country didn't fight two world wars just to lose a third one being fought with economic weapons instead of guns’ said you last week. Indeed, sir. My welsh great-grandfather in Flanders during WW1 and my welsh grandfather in North Africa in WW2 were there. Both died.

    I’m not entirely sure how accurate your figures are about the percentage of welsh speakers either when you consider this from wiki

    The 2004 Welsh Language Use Survey showed 21.7% of the population of Wales to be Welsh speakers.[10] This is an increase from 20.5% in the 2001 census, and from 18.5% in 1991. The 2001 census also shows that about 25% of Welsh residents were born outside Wales. Of course, I’m not sure percentage is a useful indicator of whether to mark a language as ‘dying’ due to the huge migration levels. I can only say from personal experience that living in a large town just outside Cardiff, my son was very, very lucky to get a place in our welsh speaking primary school where demand meant there were 110 applications for 60 places.

    As for cost of the welsh language act? I can’t seem to find overall figures. This from a FOI request at Caerphilly unitary authority

    2009 / 2010 1785 £ 38,020.78
    2010 / 2011 1545 £ 52,007.72
    2011 / 2012 599 £ 19,149.85

    So, if you consider 22 Unitary authorities and aggregate the above, it’ll be somewhere around £8 million per year maybe? Throw some in for wages of the staff having to do all the bilingual stuff...maybe £14million per year?
    When you consider the UK has a total, estimated debt(plus quasi debit like PFI’s) of £2.46 fucking trillion or 167% of GDP plus £1.34 trillion of financial sector interventional costs, plus £1.2 trillion of mortage debt, plus £210 billion of unsecured flat screen TV debt. When you consider the llegal wars in Iraq and Afghan have cost us all over £20Billion and far too many lives on all sides,our MP’s expenses top £90 million per year, and the MP’s watchdog service, just to keep those fuckers in line,will cost £6.5 million per year, I’m thinking your introduction for your next post should be Dear Call me Dave, WHAT.THE.FUCK .

    The xenophobic pointlessness, and petty, school boy ranting of this post is a waste of our time. Your readers deserve better, don’t we?

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  60. mmw, clearly my readers are very happy with this piece as I am still getting lengthly comments on it 6 months after it was written! So, highly topical then?

    My main points remain the same - (1) Raise your own taxes and spend your own money not mine, and (2) these signs really do make the place look so cluttered and untidy for something frankly so unecessary.

    It's not the amounts involved, it's the principal of pissing someone else's dosh up the wall rather your own that really rankles me.

    I'm not at all xenophobic and have nothing again the principality although the natives do seem to display a level of intolerance - see previous comments - that I find unhealthy. Perhaps they are the more xenophobic with respect to the English?

    At the end of the day, no-one forces you to either read what I write or to agree with it. This piece has succeeded in arousing interest and in stimulating discussion.

    It has boosted my readership, and even if you totally disagree with it, it is still one of my widest read articles to date...

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  61. There's an old saying - "Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves, boyo!"

    If you don't want the £14 million quid, I'll have it! no problems.

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  62. "Especially colonies of leeches who don't want independence!"

    Just as I originally thought - an intolerant English bigot.

    Care to estimate the value in pounds sterling of the wealth "extracted" from Wales that has benefited England since the conquest?

    Care to estimate the number of Welshmen dead in wars to protect or expand England's empire, from Agincourt to the Falklands and everything in between and since?

    Care to estimate the number of English who have chosen to relocate to the Welsh speaking parts of Wales and have done so without any effort whatsoever to "integrate" and learn Welsh, forcing the Welsh to speak more and more English against our will?

    Until such time as you research and factor in considered, accurate responses to the above questions and similar ones before reaching a hasty, small minded decision on just "who" exactly should be contributing taxable revenue towards the Welsh/British language, you will remain an intolerant English bigot.

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  63. Ok Neilyn, since you asked :

    Care to estimate the amount of wealth extracted from England that Wales has benefitted from? I think you'll find that the net flow is firmly towards you. Without England you would be economically bankrupt which is presumably why you don't have the bottle to ask for independance?

    Care to estimate the number of Englishmen killed by the Welsh in their constant invasions in the middle ages which forced us to build castles all along the border to contain the barbarians who insisted on raping and pillaging in cross border raids?

    And incidentally I do not underestimate or disrepect the number of Welshmen killed fighting in the British forces alongside other British men against a common foe. However, the last time there was conscription was in WWII so any Welsh servicemen since then have volunteered and been paid for their services, so don't quote Falklands in your blinkered context.

    Care to estimate the number of holiday homes that were burnt down by the people of North Wales because they didn't want the English amongst them? I'd call that ethnic cleansing.

    And you have the cheek to call me a bigot? Strikes me the pot is calling the kettle black and you are a xenophobic, intolerant, English hating Welsh bigot.

    And frankly if you don't like what I write then you don't have to read it. You can always fuck off somewhere else - there must be an English bashing web site out there somewhere. Try Plaed Cymru (which I likely spelt wrong but frankly I can't be arsed to look it up).

    Remember - you did ask!

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  64. Well said, Dioclese. Take no notice. The Welsh are all cunts with no sense of humour.

    I bet you won't get the last word because that's one thing these fucking Welsh prats will never give up.

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  65. EB - thanks for the support but I think that's just a little over the top!!

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  66. "Care to estimate the number of holiday homes that were burnt down by the people of North Wales because they didn't want the English amongst them?"

    Quite right and don't forget that even though they didn't want the dreaded foreigners there, they were happy to take the money for their run down cottages and then take more money for doing them up before burning them down. Doubtless they then took even more money off them for rebuilding them afterwards. Clearly that's what these Welsh bastards call a 'cottage industry'.

    The French did the same but at least they didn't burn them down afterwards. Just complained about the English buying up French villages and driving out the French. They took the money for the wreck and then when the English had spent loads doing the place up, decided they wanted it back again.

    Cunts. The lot of them.

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  67. Yes, I did ask, but with the emphasis on researching the facts of Wales' long standing relationship with England in the hope that a more balanced perspective might form itself in your mind. Silly me.

    You say that without England Wales would be economically bankrupt. Perhaps you've overlooked the fact that without England Wales would have remained and developed as an independent country, and a fairly wealthy one at that given the natural resources/low population. Still, that's water under the bridge as things stand. As for future state of affairs, well, the future's unwritten, so we'll just have to wait and see how things develop. The upcoming referendum in Scotland will undoubtedly result in new constitutional arrangements, whatever the outcome.

    One thing is abundantly clear however. England/UK is living well beyond her means with one of the largest national debts of any developed country in the world - circa £967 billion! (Sept 2011). So much for Wales being poor and England being rich - the English are up to their neck in debt. The Anglo-British government at Westminster has been borrowing and spending for decades to keep up appearances on the global stage about being a 'great power' but now the truth is out! Simply being able to borrow vast amounts of cash on the global money market does not make a country rich, does it?

    Latest (Sept 2011) regional trade statistics by HM Revenue and Customs make extremely interesting reading -

    Exports from Wales rose in value by a massive 31.4% over the 12 months to June to stand at £13.05bn. Scotland rose by 6.6% to £15.98bn, England by 14.9% to £201.59bn and Northern Ireland by 11.4% to £5.6bn.

    Imports to Wales also rose in value by 26.8% to £7.33bn, Scotland by 6.6% to £11.83bn, Northern Ireland by 11.6% to £5.41bn and England by 14.4% to £302.4bn.

    Overall, in terms of balance of trade (not including unallocated imports & exports)

    Wales +£5.72billion
    Scotland +£4.15billion
    Northern Ireland +£190million
    England -£100.81billion
    United Kingdom -£99.05billion (including unallocated imports & exports)

    Well done Wales. Certainly not the conventional wisdom, is it? Could it be closer to the truth to suggest that England is dragging us all down?

    Nuclear powered submarines, illegal wars, show-stopping Olympic opening ceremonies, wasteful defence contracts and NHS computer systems, fancy British embassies circling the globe and MPs expenses! One could go on, and on, and on ad infinitum, but I'm sure I don't need to, you'll know all about this yourself by now, as we all do.

    The money spent on the Welsh language is pretty small indeed in the grand scheme of things. But since when has that got anything to do with it. Silly me!

    Nos da a Hwyl Fawr.

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  68. "Could it be closer to the truth to suggest that England is dragging us all down?" - If you feel that way, why don't you want to go it on your own? I'd certainly support you if you did.

    Your statistics are interesting, but your imports and exports are figures relating to the trade from outside the UK with each constituent country/region/principality and ignores the trade between Wales and England/Scotland/NI which flows very much in the opposite direction. You can rgue anything using selective statistics.

    But we are way off the point of the article here - which was, and still is, waste your own money any way you like but not ours.

    Do you support a fully independent Wales with its own parliament and tax raising powers or not? That's the real question you seem to be avoiding...

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  69. Fucking told you you wouldn't get the last word from these cunts.

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  70. "But we are way off the point of the article here - which was, and still is, waste your own money any way you like but not ours."

    As things currently stand there is no yours and ours. The UK is a unitary state, not a federal state. All UK taxes are collected by the treasury in London and distributed in accordance with arrangements devised by the British Government at the end of WW2. Only now, post devolution, are these arrangements coming under scrutiny. Scotland could vote for fiscal autonomy in the upcoming referendum (if not independence). The opportunity for Wales and Northern Ireland to adopt similar arrangements may, or may not, follow.

    We'll have to wait and see what happens, bearing in mind that it's not impossible that if Scotland were to vote for independence, the UK's days could be numbered anyway.

    As things stand however, each nation of the UK is directly funded from a central pot, and the immediate pressure from Wales is on reform of the existing arrangements (Barnett) to ensure fair funding on a needs basis. Scotland currently gets an overgenerous settlement (£4 billion/year extra), whilst Wales is underfunded by circa £300 million/year. Not a vast amount in UK terms but significant for Wales (The figure comes from several independent reports).

    "Do you support a fully independent Wales with its own parliament and tax raising powers or not? That's the real question you seem to be avoiding..."

    I'm not avoiding it at all. The answer is Yes, if independence comes with full control of territorial land, sea and air, natural resources, repatriation of national treasures and fair distribution of UK assets/debts. Not forgetting explicit recognition (with suitable financial/asset adjustments) in the independence settlement of historical damages inflicted through England's conquest, colonisation, annexation and exploitation.

    In the meantime, let's keep it civilised and respectful, shall we? Less of the 'intolerance and bigotry' towards your fellow Britons and our British language.

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  71. If "there is no yours and ours" then why is Westminster giving you £15,023,982,000 in 2011/12 according to the Assembly's own budget documents?

    And you seem to be saying that you are happy to be independent provided that Wales recieves "fair distribution of UK assets". You can 100% of yours but what you seem to be suggesting is that you want a share of Englnd, Scotland and NI's as well. Or to put it another way : we'll only leave if you pay us to?

    "England's conquest, colonisation, annexation and exploitation"? and then accusing me of bigotry?? Pot, kettle, and black come to mind...

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  72. See - told you your wasting your breath Dioclese. No way are you going to get the last word!

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  73. Can I use the word cunt on this website?

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  74. Absolutely! I say 'cunt' a lot.

    I believe that's 'cont' in Welsh although it's irrelevant really because it's a dead language!! Sounds a bit Irish to me...

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  75. This author has obviously haven't done his homework. Not to mention that this article has a few mistake as well.

    Let begin shall we?
    First, English official language of the UK? Are you serious? UK is not just a country, it a Country OF counties, in other words, "sovereign state". And the fact that United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland does not necessary mean all counties should be force to speak English. (Force to speak English, get any little history flashback?)

    Now onto the Welsh speakers population, yes indeed there are 600,000 people who speak Welsh but that doesn't mean there aren't any people who speak Welsh OUTSIDE of Wales, in fact there 150,000 Welsh speakers in England, possible more as we speak.

    Speaking of which, there is nothing wrong about children learning Welsh in Wales, we not forcing them nor we are giving them a choice. They either want to learn or not, and guess what? Frankly they do. Fun fact: The numbers of Welsh speakers are increasing, interesting right?

    As for the road signs and alike, seriously why're you making a big deal out of this? Of course there gonna foreign languages signs everywhere, there are people in Wales who doesn't English and need to go shopping. You don't see me fly over to China and expect all of them speak Chinese, guess what bruh? They don't. There are 296 languages alone in that country over there. (Not joking, serious shit) Anyways, the UK government didn't decide to put Welsh signs, we did. In 1965, The Welsh group "Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg" have been campaigning for a number of years with the Ble mae'r Gymraeg (Where's the Welsh?)And what did they want? Welsh, of course. Welsh signs, Welsh channels, Welsh media and so on.

    And so, thanks to the Dragons around Wales. The language is still going strong and growing, and it also the oldest language alive in Europe.


    Bod yr holl oddi wrthyf, dydd da.

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  76. What a ridiculous article totally uninformed and biased - should we all become Muslims as this is bigger than Christianity ?? No I think not.

    Welsh is very alive and just because people are bilingual doesn't mean they feel comfortable speaking English. I learnt English as a second language in Wales and speak Welsh more often even 35 years later!.

    What you are forgetting is that the predecessor to Welsh (insular Celtic) was a language that existed long before English and was spoken all over the UK.

    In total around 750,000 people speak Welsh and probably more abroad too, making Welsh in the top 100 languages in the world out of the approx 3000-5000 that exist. It has never died or got outdated.

    Check your facts before writing such tosh !!!

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  77. Can't be arsed. After all it's only a dead language...

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  78. Dioclese,

    Having read so many negative comments aimed unfairly in your direction, I thought it was about time to air something other than a Welsh Nationalist rant, as the truth bears no relation to the 'noble defence of a living culture' argument which some leek-rattling anti-English muppets seem to be trying to peddle here.

    While it is true that the Welsh culture was systematically Anglicised, the 'restorative' argument makes as much sense as demanding the forced repatriation of those 'pesky' Angles and Saxons. The language of Wales is, almost exclusively, English. The statistics on use of the Welsh language include those people who know some words of Welsh, a sizeable proportion, but no different to the way in which most British people use words and phrases in the French language of the Normans. Even Del Boy makes a stab at it! Using this argument, the whole of the UK could probably be shown to be French speakers.

    The bi-lingual requirement legislated for in recent decades means that in areas of Wales such as Blaenau Gwent, which qualified for EU priority one funding for deprivation, there is no money for sufficient grit on the roads in winter, but at least local people can be told in both English and Welsh, as funding of the translation and its distribution in print is obligatory.

    Yes, this might provide income for half a dozen Nationalists who learned Welsh at college in the 70's, but to a populace struggling to make ends meet, the 'wouldn't it be fun to be able to speak Welsh' argument certainly adds insult to the expense of equipping a nation with a brand new set of place names (Cardiff was NEVER known as Caerdydd. Ever! Rockfield was NEVER known as Llanoronwy until the local council invented the name in 2010.)

    Combine this nonsense with an absence of linguistic skills that led a Wrexham school entrance 'for staff' to be translated into Welsh as 'for wooden stick' and you get some idea of the whole grisly picture.

    S4C, the Welsh language version of Channel 4 (channel being 'translated' as sianel in the same way as 'customer' becomes 'cwsmer' and 'ambulance' becomes 'ambiwlans,' 'computer' has been rendered as 'compwter' and 'scout' becomes 'sgowt') has achieved distinction by regularly pulling in audiences of 0. That's right, zero. None.

    The Welsh language might not be completely dead, but it is on a very expensive artificial life-support system. It's likely to survive, but in a persistent vegetative state, just like some of your critics here!

    Rest assured, the views of the 'less than 0.1 per cent' are not shared by the overwhelming majority. Unless, of course, England are playing Wales in the 'rwgbi.'

    Even then, this anti-English sentiment is less reminiscent of a struggle for national independence from an oppresive enemy, and more like West Ham's struggle against Millwall. It matters greatly, but only to some!

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  79. Nicely put, Anon - but I doubt it will be the last word on the subject! It might not be completely dead, but it's sure as hell coughing up blwd.

    I remember once being on a boat on the Nile with two Welsh couples who spoke English all the time - until one of us came near them. Then they reverted to Welsh. I think it's a kind of elitist snobbery to some of them. A sort of private club that excludes the hated English.

    Culture is fine, but having been to Wales, there seems to be more in a pot of yoghurt - or should I say 'yogwrt'?

    The spelling is, of course, interesting. The Welsh did not have a written language until the English came along and introduced it, throwing in a few extra characters to go with their pronunciations. They have this in common with many other countries in the world although, they will of course, deny it.

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  80. Roedd ein tir yn gyntaf!
    Efallai y dylech ddysgu Cymraeg i chi budreddi.

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  81. Potes meos suaviari clunes. (That's another dead language)...

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  82. First of all I hope that all the Welsh readers do not think that the thoughts of the original post are that of the majority of us English.
    I have served in the Royal Navy with many a welsh lad and lady and have never found them to be xenophobic, biggoted or in anyway anti-English.
    Wales is a country in its own right, as is Scotland and Northern Ireland.
    I can see why Wales would not want to go their seperate ways as some of our Scottish neighbours do because generating income would be too difficult.
    The views which the poster raises about road signs being dual language also is inept and sadly mis-guided. Living in London, I see a number of road signs, and countless other signs in multi-languages due to the diverse culture now embedded in the country. I memory serves me correctly there are also dual language signs in Devon and Cornwall?
    The view that Wales is JUST a Prinicipality is also flawed! Wales is BOTH a country and Principality.
    I admit that I am English first and British Second and that sadly feel that this is not the case with some of our friends in Scotland being Scottish then English and ofcourse in Wales being Welsh then English...but this is only some!
    The only reason that Wales ever adopted English as the language was because we had the audacity to raid and take over the country as a colony to begin with then forcibly adopt Wales as part of the United Kingdom along with NI and Scotland. Therefore all parts of the UK are totally asorbed into the British Isles and come under the rule of the British Government. HOWEVER, each country is responsible for managing the costs, this is broken down into counties, towns etc and much of the road infrastructure and furniture is funded by LOCAL Governments by way of council tax etc yes some funding by National Goverernment.
    My argument is that this dual language does not just sit with Wales but in all parts of the UK including England!
    I am a very patriotic person and would be said to see the British Islaes break up into seperate countries as that is what makes the British unique.
    I would like to question what the author thinks about the Falklands? As tax payers we also pay a certain amount of funding to them.. should we stop that?
    Wales are part of the @United Kingdom and bring in a huge amount of money to our coffers because of tourism, that alone could pay for the dual signs so therefore your argument is false.
    Im proud to have the Welsh as both neighbours and also part of our great country!!

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  83. As usual, completely missing my point. I don't object to dual language stuff - just having to foot the bill for it.

    As regards the multiculturality of London, the fact that the capital is overrun by a bunch of foreigners does not make it alright and adds to the housing shortage.

    If you want to see just how fucked up our country - Britain not just England - is becoming with this sort of crap, then go to Leicester or take a drive up the Alum Rock Road in Birmingham.

    As regards the Falklands, I am preparing a piece on that that the moment. You'll probably disagree with that, too...

    Thanks for your comments.

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  84. I do agree that we are being overrun by foreign nationals so agree with you on that front.. I live in East London and out of 300 in my road, there is probably only 10 that are of British background.

    We shall have to disagree on footing the bill for the dual language, I just hope that your piece does not target the Welsh as a nation as they as much part of Britain as you or I.

    Regarding the Falklandsm having served during the conflict I only hope you are not going to say that we should give it up. I served there and saw many friends die on board HMS Sheffield, and have also been there since and lived there for a year. The place in amazing, the people are very friendly and the amount of money they bring in from farming and other resources is immense and one thing that puts them apart from Wales, or even Scotland is that they could finance themselves.. Infact given the natural resources down there like Oil (lets not beat about the bush, this is the main reason we wont give the Islands up and the main reason that the Argies want them back!) could maintain the Ecomnomy alone!

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  85. No - I'm not targetting the Welsh per se - just the fact that they bottled their tax raising alternative and send us the bill for this stuff. I feel the same about Scotland where the same sort of nonsense is being introduced and about all the multi-langual nonsense on every single piece of official paperwork these days.

    I live in England. I do not need my electricity bill in Welsh as well, or any other language come to that.

    The Falklands are British. So are the Pitcairns. More on that later...

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  86. I can see where you are coming from, and what you mean, but ultimately if you don't like reading signs in Welsh, then don't visit Wales.

    The United Kingdom as a whole are being overrun by Foreign Nationals, with 90% residing in England .... How about sorting problems out on you're own doorstep first?

    Another thing (while I'm at it, I'm not having a direct go at you, just a shite day in work) A lot of Welsh Speakers would rather not be attached to the United Kingdom, and would prefer to go a separate way ... More so when it comes down to the EU (Let's be honest, it has been more hassle than good!).

    And I think you will find, that if you look back through history, we've been here much longer than you "English Speakers" have been (By we, I mean Irish/Scottish and Welsh).

    English is a relatively new language by all accounts, whilst Welsh is an Ancient Language.

    If you don't like it, then Cer i grafu!

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  87. Cymraeg am byth2 March 2013 20:42

    Dioclese, you are such a mindless bigot moron that in the end you are funny. Cymraeg will never die, idiot, for your stupid resentment, Cymraeg am byth!!!

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  88. Not sure what that means because I don't speak a dead language. Mae'n ddrwg gennyf!

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  89. And you, sir, are a pig ignorant welshman

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  90. Flaxen Saxon16 June 2013 03:25

    Fucking whinging celts. Look up the word ‘Welsh’ in old English it means foreigner. You were subdued by a superior race and allowed to exist. If you can’t be bothered to speak god’s language then you should fuck off back to Mesopotamia or wherever you squat, beetle-browed gypos come from.

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  91. Jessica Wong25 June 2013 01:00

    It's absolutely pathetic how much racism there still is these days!

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  92. This is criticism not racism.

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  93. Jessica Wong25 June 2013 20:02

    Sure no racism, so why don't you go shag a sheep instead? There are plenty in England as well as Wales

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  94. Flaxen Saxon26 June 2013 01:41

    Jessica, you are totally wong (geddit)you dozy mesopotanium bint.

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  95. Got to agree with Dioclese ... it's a dead language although l have to rate it at the top of the most stupid looking languages. It looks as though it was put together by a dyslexic on amphetamines.

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  96. I come from an English background yet I went to a Welsh school and I will pass the language on to my children as their first language. CYMRU AM BYTH. It is not a dead language and I will never allow it to be

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  97. "Will never allow it to be" - wishing doesn't make it so!

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  98. What a prick, my whole entire family are first language welsh and it's people like you who try to kill it. The language is fine and dandy, just need to get rid of cunts like you. Twll dyn pob saes

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  99. Hope you don't live in England but I expect you do. The whole point of my piece was you're pissing English money up the wall instead of your own. Spend your own if you want to promote your dead language - not ours.

    Your language wasn't even written down until the English showed you how to do it. And you think I'm a cunt?

    Twll dy dîn di!. Dôs adra i farw i'r gath gael bwyd.

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  100. Bloody dozy celts. They should be forced to learn the lovely lyrical and indigenous language of the English. Indeed Welsh is not so much a language but a disease of the throat. Anyone speaking it should be thrashed until an inch of their life. On a second offense they deserve destruction from existence on this earth by fire; even unto their children. And all their kinsmen shall be placed in bondage and thrall. Well that's what the MP for Tipton is saying. Seems to make sense, doesn't it?

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  101. You shouldn't argue with idiots you loose on experience.

    He has been told a hundred times that he hasn't got a clue.

    He is incapable of understanding the concept of a real heritage as the English don't have one.

    Cymru am byth

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  102. I have SAID 100 TIMES that it's not the concept I have a problem with, it's WHO PAYS FOR IT. The Welsh are welcome to spend their own taxes, but insist on spending mine! Why are you fools in capable of understanding this point? Oh,is it because you don't want to? How convenient.

    The English don't have a real heritage but the Welsh do. Well, that's just bollocks isn't it?

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  103. It's not a dead language.

    It is on disability benefits though, and resistant to ATOS sniffing around.

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  104. I think this article is absolute bull **** but hey every1 is entitled to thier opinion... My kids speak welsh as they are in welsh school as I want them to ave the welsh education I didn't get as a child I am in the prosess of learning welsh and doing very well at it I feel that every1 living in wales should speak welsh as it is our countries language not English we should be proud of our language I cannot wait for the day that I can speak fluent welsh it is a beautiful language. I think every1 in walea should give it a go :)

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  105. Dear Anon,
    How dare you sully this blog with your innate celtishness! Sir, you should be thrashed and your ears cut off and a board placed around your neck saying: ‘Look I have transgressed against humanity and all that is sacred. I have uttered words in a strange and almost dead language. May God forgive me, for the English will not’. By the way, could you send me one of your ears for my collection? I have been collecting ears from around the world and, as yet, don’t have a Welsh one. The good Dioclese has my address.

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  106. I can't help thinking that the last Anonymous commentor should spent less time worrying about learning a dead language and more time learning to spell in English.

    He can't even spell the name of his own country. Thats's W-A-L-E-S not W-A-L-E-A although as it seems to be full of wallies who seem incapable of grasping the pecuniary (that's money by the way) that I am making perhaps Walea or even Wallyland would be more appropriate?

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  107. Although I am fluent in welsh, I am also well over 40, so am well over the nationalistic crap of the younger generation and can see the truth in your words.

    What was Wales`s biggest mistake was to be conned to vote Yes in the referendum, which has allowed the Communists (Labour/Plaid Cymru) and their hangers on to create their Socialist utopia.

    The result as with the introduction of free prescriptions, f**cking up the Welsh NHS system, is a nightmare - You have the landed Gentry (farmers) sucking up money through subsidies, then you have the high percentage of parasites working? for the state all funded by a seasonal crew of burger flippers (because Wales is now officially a tourist playground).

    Like you said we can`t afford bilingual signs!!!

    Heddwch
    Gareth

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  108. Bloody hell! Someone has actually read what I wrote instead of just flying off the handle!

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  109. I am Welsh and I find Welsh to be a language that I struggle to learn and just in general a useless language - that I can agree with. However I also find it to be a part of who I am - seeing Welsh everywhere is what makes us know we're Welsh and that we're in our country of Wales. I disagree with your bit about us not being able to afford bilingual signs when the politicians are lining their pockets with whatever they can squander; but I do agree with what you've said to an extent. I may not like Welsh, and maybe I'll never need to use it again in my life, but I still view Welsh as being a part of who I am - knowing that I can sing Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau (the Welsh national anthem), wish people Nadolig Llawen (Merry Christmas) and tell people 'Cymru am byth' (Wales forever), I know I'm Welsh and am proud of it.

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  110. Blimey another measured response. Thanks. Makes a change from the usual abuse1

    My point always has been not against Welsh per se but the fact that they spend English money on unnecessary Welsh signage. They should raise their own taxes and pay for it themselves.

    I also find it ridiculous that they pay interpreters in the Welsh assembly to translate into Welsh when everyone present speaks English anyway. Mind you, the Scots are just as bad in that respect.

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  111. I live in Wales and I object to paying for English things.

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  112. Well said Dai. You get my point then?

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